To kick off 2022, Senior Records Analyst Tina Gibeson joins Access Answers to share the value of becoming a Certified Records Manager (CRM), her role as the president of ARMA Baton Rouge, and what it means to manage the records lifecycle for a state agency.

Also available to listen on:

       

PODCAST

TRANSCRIPT

Episode 18: Records Management for Government Agencies with Tina Gibeson

Julia:

Welcome to Access Answers, and Happy New Year! I’m your host, Julia Vergara, along with Angela O’Pry, and we’re excited to introduce you to our first guest of 2022.

Angela:

This month, beginning of the year, we’re excited to have Tina Gibeson. I’m going to go ahead and say she’s the single most interesting person, interesting woman, that works at Access Sciences, possibly that I’ve ever met. There’s so much to talk about and learn about with Tina. We just got to visit with her in person in Baton Rouge. Her official title with Access Sciences is the Senior Records Analyst, but she does way more than that. We’re so excited to hear from you today.

Tina:

Thank You, Angela. I’m glad to be here.

Angela:

You are a certified records manager. I didn’t say that after your title. I apologize. Tell us a little bit about what that process was like to become certified and what you, I guess, to put it in simple terms, what do you do every day?

Tina:

Sure. The CRM, which is the certified records manager, is a certification that’s issued by the Institute of Certified Records Managers. And it’s really one of the kind of call certificates for anyone who works in the records management profession. It’s a fairly involved process. It’s six different tests. Five of those are multiple choice, really covering the gamut of records management, things that we do day to day from life cycle management to also some managerial aspects and some technology aspects. And then the last part of it is an essay component. And you go in and you get basically two scenarios, and then you write how you would address those scenarios in your professional role as a records manager. That was pretty intense. That was three hours of nonstop writing. And I don’t recommend taking the first five courses in the options that I did, which was, I basically took all five back to back to back.

That was a little too much, but I just wanted to see what stuck. And I was lucky enough to get all of them to pass the first time around. Happy to do that, but it just covers everything that I do as a records manager. You wear very many hats in that regard. The biggest component of course, is document life cycle management. You take the record from its creation, you manage it through its active phase, so where the agency or anyone’s actively using the document in whatever form. And then as the value of it diminishes for your day to day operations, it goes into an inactive phase and that’s where we keep it for however long we are required to keep it as per its, retention is the official word.

And then once that retention has been met, it will either be destroyed or it might be, if it has some sort of historical value, transferred to state archives or some other preserving agency, but basically it ends there. And there’s a lot of policies and guidelines that go along with developing that kind of process. Part of my job is to keep those up to date, make sure they’re meeting all appropriate standards, loss regulations, so some research aspects in that as well. And then of course, the day to day, working with people, there’s a lot of questions that we answer, a lot of change management, and a lot is just keeping up with training and those kind of things. It’s very rewarding, lots of different things we touch on.

Angela:

In addition to being a records manager, you were also an adjunct professor for a bit at LSU. You work closely with the university. You are very musically inclined. You have a pet rabbit. It’s just amazing to me all the different facets of who you are as a woman. And I just think that’s amazing. There’s always something else to learn. I think we spent three days together in Baton Rouge and every day was just so much fun.

Tina:

And you did not see me sword fight, so that’s the other thing.

Angela:

Yes. Okay. Tell us about the sword fighting.

Tina:

Yeah, I think having a lot of different life experiences is the most rewarding aspect of being able to have careers and interacting with a variety of people in general. We do German long sword mask and then I was part of a local group that does HEMA is what it’s called, Historical European Martial Arts. Yeah. And basically, we get together, and we are wearing full fencing gear, so I have an 18th century replica of a fencing dress, which is pretty cool.

Angela:

We have to see that.

Tina:

I’ll see if I can dig out a picture for you.

Angela:

I swear, we do learn something new every day with Tina. I know. I know. Is it like tennis where you guys do doubles with other people or do you fight against each other or…

Tina:

Yes. It is against each other. It is competitive. I do believe it was on either ESPN. One of the great channels picked up one of the major tournaments. I did not compete in those, but yeah, it’s usually two minutes timed. It works like regular French fencing that you probably are familiar with. You trade blows with your partner and hopefully hit them before they hit you.

Julia:

Who’s a better sword fighter, you or your husband?

Tina:

Well, my husband the is over six feet and 250 pounds. I fought him once and I said, not ever again, but we have some women in our club who can go toe to toe with him in particular. I’m a little too timid on that front, but we have some very, very dedicated fighters. They’re all very, very good.

Angela:

That’s awesome. Yeah. We have to see that for sure. Tell us about how long you’ve been working in Baton Rouge for, I guess I forgot to mention altogether, you work for Access Sciences. You work closely with the Louisiana Department of Environmental Quality and how long have you been there on that project?

Tina:

I’ve been there pretty much for my entire career at Access Sciences, so since about December 2015, so just six years now.

Angela:

Wow.

Tina:

Yeah. And I started out as the records analyst where my primary role was overseeing the public records center. A big component of being a state agency is of course making records available to the public. And so I was overseeing more of the complicated requests that we got, whether it was subpoenas or legal discovery proceedings, or just more involved eight requests. And then through the years, my role has really grown to incorporate all of these other facets of records management for the agency. It’s been a very rewarding, growth journey in my professional development too.

Julia:

Going back to being a CRM, there is a certification that proceeds that, right?

Tina:

Yes and no, there is now an embedded certification. The CRM has six parts like I mentioned, but there’s three parts in the multiple choice section, parts two, three, and four, that are the most what I would say, records centric components. Those all touch on the records lifecycle management, and there is now the embedded certification. If you pass those three parts, then you actually get to be a CRA, certified records analyst, and comes with a couple of benefits, really, because you no longer have a time requirement to complete your CRM. Once you have that CRA you can take the other parts really, whenever you like, whenever you feel like you’re ready and it gives a nice immediate return on investment. If you need to show your boss, Hey, this is really worthwhile pursuing. Here, I’ve passed these three parts. I can definitely do this.

I already got a little bit of a certification. Now let me go on and finish off the series. You mentioned my work with LSU a little bit, LSU has a certificate of effort management certificate program, where once you go through that program, it’s entirely online. Then you are actually coming out and you are already a CRA. They work closely with the ICRM and it fulfills that initial requirement for completing those parts and our most recent higher DEQ who joined us, Stormi Verret, she actually came out of that program. She did an internship with me at DEQ, and she’s been phenomenal in every aspect. We hired her to be part of this project. And so she has her CRA. Now is going to go on and sit for the CRM part six.

Julia:

That’s awesome.

Angela:

Is the certification through ARMA or is it a standalone certification program?

Tina:

It’s the Institute of Certified Records Managers. They work obviously closely with ARMA, but they are an independent accrediting body.

Julia:

Is the certification something you recommend for anybody who’s in records management?

Tina:

I would think so. It’s a tried-and-true credential that really is worth having and that means something to those who are in the records management circle, because it is that thorough and pretty much encompasses everything that we do.

Angela:

I forgot to mention, you’re also the ARMA board president in Baton Rouge.

Tina:

I am. ARMA has a Baton Rouge chapter and glad to say I’ve been on the board for a while now. And this is my second year as president. I must be doing something right. No, but we have a very good group of dedicated, very, very hardworking records managers in the area. And what we do is we usually put on a once a month meeting, get together, tends to be the first Wednesday of the month and we just get everyone together. Sometimes we’ll have a speaker sometimes we’ll do what’s your problem at your work? How can we all help each other troubleshoot? Or sometimes it’s just, Hey, let’s get together and just sit and chat kind of thing. Making connections with some business components and getting some different input from others is always helpful.

Angela:

Are you seeing any trends among the membership or any common challenges that other records managers are having?

Tina:

A lot of our chapter is state agency centric. We do have some private sectors. We have a couple of law firms, a couple of energy, electronic electricity sector. For the most part, everyone is struggling with converting to electronic records. Most of the state agencies by nature tend to be very paper heavy, but also most law firms tend to be paper heavy. And so we’ve had a lot of conversations the last couple years of how do you move to electronic record systems? How do you make them available to your workers? That was the hot topic last year because DEQ is very fortunate in that we have a public facing online system that makes our records available, whether to the public or internal. It was easy for us to pivot to work from home even as a state agency, but most agencies aren’t there. They had to shift rather rapidly to a somewhat how do I make my records accessible format? And that question has come up a lot in the last couple.

Angela:

I remember whenever we were there, we were talking about the digital mail room and getting the mail scanned when everyone was working from home. That was something I never even thought of, but made total sense once you mentioned that.

Tina:

Yeah, that was a really interesting project that where basically the seventh floor had to be quarantined for COVID, which was also the mail processing floor for our agencies. And no one was allowed to go in. The normal mail staff had to work from home, so we came up with a standup solution on the fly, because we have obviously a scanning program in place, but we said, “Okay, we’re going to take the mail. We’ll have one dedicated person. They’re going to scan it all into a holding area.” And then that way we make that available to the regular mail processing staff and they will index it and route it to the correct person that it needs to go to. And they didn’t lose any processing time or being able to work on the documents right then and there.

Angela:

Yeah, that’s fascinating. I saw in a Kofax report that that’s also something that was a priority for, I think, 77% of the respondents.

Tina:

I’m sure.

Angela:

I’m guess it’s a big trend with people continuing to work from home or remotely, no matter where they are. That makes perfect sense. Also, I remember us chatting about the desire for people to buy software, to solve their problems.

Tina:

Right. Right.

Angela:

People think software is the solution. What are your thoughts on that?

Tina:

I think that is a very common mindset or a common thought. You think of us, we want an immediate solution that addresses all of our problems. And so, especially when it comes to records management, which has really so many interconnected and moving parts, we want to have that one solution that we can simply purchase plugin and it goes. And I think the problem that most will run into is if you don’t have a solid records management program that can take whatever software you’re trying to purchase and integrate it into your existing agency processes, you’re going to end up with a program that yes, it could do all those things, but no one can really tell you how to do them within the software. And you have no one that can provide the training, the indexing, the structure, et cetera, that you need to actually find the information once you dump it in there.

So it’s kind of a double edge sword. On the one hand, it’s easy to sell software to executives because I can say, “Hey, for $500 a month, we can have this amazing tool that will solve all of our problems, but it doesn’t really. When you really get to the nitty gritty, yes, it has the potential to, but we still need to make sure our input data is clean, our records are being managed appropriately and we provide the training for everyone to get to the records they need. It’s hard to explain that in a way that demonstrates that return of investment on the foundational element of records management.

Julia:

You guys just rolled out a new electronic document management system earlier this year. And I know we talked about training being a big part of that. How did the training go or how is it going?

Tina:

We did. Our EDMS system has been in place for a good 15 years. And so it was time for a facelift, for sure. Our new system is a lot easier to search. It looks much better, integrates well, but of course with that came managing change for A, the people who had been in the agency for such a long time. They were used to the old system and also of course, making sure our public members can access the information we have on there. We did a lot of initial training. We put together some help videos that walked through the major functions. We did a lot of written fact sheets. We also did some presentations to the public on the new functionality. And we thought we had it pretty well are covered.

What we did now was we actually did a, Hey, it’s been four months, tell us your opinion. How is it going? What do you think of the system? And it was funny because, so we launched our survey and we get that first response. And one of the questions was tell us which one you prefer? Do you prefer classic our old EDMS or the new one? The very first response was classic. And we’re like, Ugh, but this ended up being a really, really helpful response because the person, whoever it was, took the time to really lay out what it was they missed from the old system. And pretty much every point they made was something where we said, “Oh, but you can do that. Here’s how.” But it really showed us where our training gaps were-

Julia:

Right.

Tina:

… Where we hadn’t communicated well. When we send our two weeks, “Hey, the survey is still up, please keep taking it” email, we included some initial, we also noticed this, as a question. Here’s a quick how to do that. It’s guiding our future training initiatives and what we’re going to put into fact sheets going forward.

Angela:

Change can be hard, right?

Tina:

Very much so. Yes. Especially one where you’ve worked with the system. We have staff, who’ve seen it, that they used to work in the file rooms when everything was paper. And they’ve seen it grow from the very small set to the seven something million documents that it is today. It’s up there.

Angela:

And anyone listening can read the case study that we have posted on our website and learn more about it. One of the things that I learned by going through that process with you all is the faceted search and the value it brings internally to the organization, not just externally.

Tina:

Right. As a search feature in this new system, we essentially used our indexing values to allow users to drill down by just clicking on one of the faceted filters, very similar to a modern day search that you’ll find in any retailer really on their website. We have a lot of, let’s say, permit documents. You click on the word permit. It will show you everything that has permit in indexing scheme, but it helped us really do some quick data clean up. For example, we knew that from the very, very beginning that the system was first initiated, there was a lot of data issues around dates. We had some dates that never populated or that populated with the wrong date. And they summarily got a 1901 date identified in the system, but it was very hard to find those. Well with the facets, you can simply click on the date category and you literally click on 1901. It pulls up all those documents. We actually did a cleanup effort and got rid of all of those. All of those are addressed now, but it’s been really helpful for these kinds of initiatives too.

Tina:

Sure. It was, I guess, almost four months now. It was back in October. We were, totally unrelated, doing a refinance on our house. And we were in the process of signing documents. And one of our friends turned around and said, “Oh my gosh, you got a bunny on the porch.” And of course we’re like, “No.” And sure enough, turned around, there is a bunny sitting just on the driveway and chilling out. And so we couldn’t do anything that night because it was getting too dark. Next morning I went out there and sure enough bunny had made itself a home under our porch. We said, “Okay, fine. Commence operation Rescue Bunny. And so I went to work and I left my husband in charge of said operation. And so, about halfway through the day, I get a message and he’s like, “Yeah, I’m still working on it, but there was a complication.” And there was a dog at the back porch door now. They had to keep the dog from chasing the bunny, chased the dog across two different neighbors’ yards. Luckily someone else took care of the dog and it was reunited with its owner.

Julia:

Good.

Tina:

When I got at home, they were still trying to catch the bunny. Between three of us, we were able to get her into a carrier. And we posted flyers and everything of course around the neighborhood, but no one ever came to claim her. And initially she was supposed to go to Houston. That fell through. And at that point I was hopelessly attached. We said, “No. You know what? We’re just going to take the bunny-”

Julia:

Funny how that sneaks up on you.

Tina:

Yeah. She’s been very much a joy in my life for the last four months and we do have four cats. They had to make some room on the upstairs and it was funny because I just got done wrapping Christmas presents and tried to put it all under the tree. And my husband comes in and is like, “Oh my gosh, are all of those for me?” And I’m like, “Yeah, no. This is all the cat and the bunny presents. I think two out of those are for you.” She’s definitely getting spoiled rotten. She’s very much a cute little thing.

Julia:

Yeah. You said something over dinner that I thought was hilarious. You said having a pet bunny is basically, what was it, just trying to keep it from-

Angela:

From dying.

Julia:

Yeah.

Tina:

Yes. I’ve learned more about bunny in the last four months, but they’re very fragile creatures. You have to be very specific about what you feed them or they die and you can’t get them too excited or they get excited and die or. They might decide, oh no, this is all too much. I’m giving up on life. It really is amazing that they’re able to stick around. And of course you have to bunny proof your entire home because as the colloquial Reddit saying goes, they go after the spicy hay, which of course is any cable that you may have laying around in your facility, whether it’s your phone charger or your refrigerator cord, or even the plastic under your water tank on the toilet. You don’t want them chewing through that. Yeah.

Julia:

No. Definitely not.

Tina:

Nope. It’s been fun, but she’s got her little Buntopia 2.0, set up. That’s a fairly extensive little cage set up and they do use a litter box. She’s got her little area and she’s been just bunny-ing around.

Julia:

Good. You have to share her name.

Tina:

Oh, her name is Beatrice Cinnabun.

Angela:

Awe. Affectionately known as lady B.

Tina:

Yep.

Angela:

Awe.

Julia:

Good to hear she’s doing good.

Angela:

Also, while we were there visiting, we learned that you had been called to testify.

Tina:

Right. I am one of the delegated public records custodians for our agency and as part of that responsibility, you do occasionally have to go court. And basically what you do is you talk about the records under your custody. Generally, you go up, you give an affidavit and you say, “Yes. I am who I am. I’m of sound mind and all of that.” And yeah, sometimes I’m like, oh yep, I am today. And then the main questions are, were those records created in the regular course of business? And you say, yes. Or you may, as in this case, give some background on what was done during a public records request or what led you to find the document or not find the document, those kinds of things.

Angela:

On a scale of one to 10, how intimidating was that?

Tina:

This one, not so much because I wasn’t, as one might consider, in the hot scene. I’m tangentially, so it’s not really about what I did. It’s more of a tangential finding of, oh, they weren’t able to do X, Y, and Z without going into the details. It’s very formal. Mostly it’s a lot of waiting. A lot of sitting and waiting to be called, but it’s sometimes interesting, sometimes, ah, got to do that again, but we do also occasionally issue just affidavits. Usually that’s sufficient. It’s just basically a written statement saying those exact things and most of the time that’s accepted.

Angela:

Yeah, that’s good to know it’s not as scary as it sounds.

Tina:

Definitely not in this case.

Angela:

We got to see the process from, I don’t know if it’s necessarily start to finish, it’s not the full life cycle of the document, but from the time the document is scanned with the barcode and entered into the Kofax and how then it goes into the EDMS system that you talked about. The Kofax report I read recently talked about intelligent documents and their use of AI. Have you read anything about that or would you say what we’re doing is in that realm?

Tina:

Intelligent use of the AI? I don’t think in this particular case. I do think there would potentially be some value in exploring that for using it inside the agency. We provide most of our indexing by hand. The staff person inputs the indexing values. If it were part possible to get to a point where basically the content is recognized automatically, and then the indexing created based on that, that would certainly be a major benefit, I think, to the agency, just in terms of being able to go faster through their documents. We’re not quite there yet. At least not from what I’m aware of. We do have a very large volume, I guess, of electronically generated records. And for those, it would absolutely be super, super helpful. Another area that I could see that being implemented would be email management.

If we went to a system and every agency, every company I’m sure is struggling with the volume of email. And especially for us, we’re still a little cumbersome in the processing of email. We have to convert them to PDF, ingest it into our system, Kofax in this case, and then send it through to our EDMS. If there was some sort of plugin button that you shoot it over, it indexes it automatically based on whatever contents, and then sends it on, that would be super helpful for sure.

Angela:

And that’s not for every email, right? Only emails that are deemed records.

Tina:

Right. We distinguish of course, between official agency records, which is in a nutshell, everything that either supports or documents an official action. Email, surprisingly 85% or so, keeping in mind, 75% of all statistics are made up on the spot, but about 85% of email is usually a non-record or sometimes what we call a transitory record. Something that might have value in the moment or until it’s been incorporated under some official record and then that will surpass the email itself. Email, yes, definitely you want to save it to be records only that goes into the formal system.

Angela:

You don’t want to save those emails back and forth about where you’re eating lunch that day.

Tina:

No, those are definitely non records and you should definitely delete your non records. Just to cut down on the volume. Yeah.

Angela:

And then once the document, we haven’t really talked about the retention schedule side of it or disposition.

Tina:

Right.

Angela:

How does that work?

Tina:

Most agents or really most companies that are managing their records, they will have some form of what’s called the retention schedule usually. And the schedule basically lays out all these records that we have that fall under this group, which is called a record series, generally of the same length that they need to be kept. All of those will be kept for X amount of years based on this and this trigger event. And so for us as an agency, we have of course our administrative records. And then we also have our, what I’m going to call, the environmental records, the records that relate to our activities as an environmental agency, so permitting, inspection, enforcement, those things.

For most of those records, our retention schedule specifies those are pretty much forever. For the life of the agency, we’re going to be bound to keep them. For the administrative records, that’s more your HR, you have your fiscal, those kind of things. Those have some shorter retentions that come into play. And really all that means is how long do I have to keep the record until I can dispose of that? Whether that’s destroying it or transferring it to a historical archive or something.

Angela:

I remember whenever I first started with Access Sciences four years ago, the concept of the records retention schedule and records management was new to me because IT was my background, not specifically records or records management, but then I started thinking about my own personal record keeping and-

Tina:

Right.

Angela:

… All the files that my parents would keep, and they used to have their checkbook stubs and receipts for things. I’m curious if you have a, as a certified records manager, how you manage your personal records.

Tina:

I tend to be very paper light, and I have fallen into the trap that converting it to electronic means it’s not paper, so it’s okay to keep it forever. On the paper front, I’m great. But no, retention obviously applies regardless of mediums. For most people, the best example is your tax returns. How long do you have to keep those? And within that, okay, you should keep them for seven years, but all of the everything you really only need to keep for three years, assuming you don’t cheat on your taxes because that’s the statuary audit period or maybe yeah… There’s certain set periods that you have for your official documents, certain things you probably want to keep forever.

An interesting one that’s cropped up lately is as a consumer with HSA documents. You need to be able to substantiate your purchases, but how long do you actually have to keep your records? And there’s currently no real clear guidance of how long or what you even need to substantiate your purchases. With those, that’s why I say paper light. I scan everything into its own folder. Organization in this case is also key. You want to be able to find your one receipt from 2000 whenever. I usually have an annual folder and I just put it in there, categorize by who’s expense it is, and then whatnot. I can probably improve. I did recently call all my academic papers from my student days, so I got rid of most of those, assuming I won’t need them again, which of course means tomorrow I will absolutely need them definitely.

Angela:

Well, you’re a step ahead of my sister. Both of you have your PhDs and I think she’s still holding onto a lot of her paperwork from, she would kill me for saying this, but the early to mid-90s. She’s storing that paper for a very long time.

Tina:

Well, a long time ago, you mentioned my musical interest, I did a paper on the prepared piano and what a prepared piano is, it was something championed by John Cage, a composer, where he basically took hardware, mostly screws and put it in between the strings, which alters the soundscape of the piano. And part of my dissertation was focused on the materials. I actually have an extensive screw collection, but I used to prepare the different piano tunes and setups. And I have not gotten rid of those yet, although it’s probably time.

Julia:

While we’re on this topic, you have to tell the audience about your educational background, because you got it all. You got the bachelor’s, master’s, PhD.

Tina:

Right, so I should probably preface this. I’m originally from Germany. I came to the United States doing an exchange year in high school and really fell in love with the country, the people, and everything about my host family was great and looked and decided to go to college in the US and was able to get with a very, very fantastic piano teacher back in Virginia at the time where I did my undergrad, except that my first year at the college there, my piano teacher decided to go to Mississippi. She said, no, you need to come with me. I followed her and her husband down to Millsaps College in Mississippi and finished my undergrad in music.

And then I was fortunate enough to get a very good scholarship to go to LSU in Louisiana, where I did my master’s and PhD in musicology, and then decided I really like the research side of it more so than the academic side in terms of what I want to do every day. I do enjoy teaching a lot, but there’s a lot on the making documents accessible to the public in general, that I really identify with. I ended up getting yet another master’s in library science, and that’s how I ended up here.

Julia:

What does your office look like? Are the degrees just all taking up your entire wall?

Tina:

No, I have not displayed any of mine because they all have apostille, which is a document you need if you want to substantiate your degree in a foreign country. I had to get apostilles for all of them to show Germany that are actually completed my education. They have the fancy certificate and then the stamp and long piece of paper with all the signatures verified on it. One of these days I might get a display copy of one of them.

Julia:

You have to. Yeah.

Angela:

Yes. You did all that work time to show it off.

Tina:

Yep.

Julia:

I say that, but then my diploma is sitting somewhere in a box right now. Not much better about that.

Angela:

Mine is still in the original tube that it came in on graduation day.

Julia:

We’re all failures on displaying our accomplishment.

Angela:

Maybe that’s our goal for the year in 2022, we’re going to display our accomplishments and be proud of the work we did.

Julia:

It’s a nice goal.

Tina:

We should.

Angela:

Yeah.

Tina:

It was funny because in my day to day where I don’t necessarily use the doctor title, but teaching for LSU over the summer, it was the first time where really actually I got to be called Dr. Gibeson for my day to day interactions. It was both very humbling, but also reassuring that yes, you do earn it. You really should use it in that regard. It’s easy to put oneself in the, oh, well, I don’t want to, but yeah. Be proud of your accomplishments. You earned them.

Angela:

What’s it like being back on the LSU campus as a professor versus a student?

Tina:

It’s very rewarding. It’s fun. But the worst part about it was, when I was at LSU for a long time going through two masters and the PhD and they used my very original student picture as the faculty profile picture for my students. I’m like, do I change it or not? Because on the one hand, I’m a lot slimmer, but I’m also slightly old. Well, anyways. Yeah, it was very fun. I enjoyed it very much, be on the other side of the fence.

Julia:

Yeah.

Angela:

Well, Tina, thank you for being our guest for January 2022. Look forward to working with you next year, seeing you in person more often, coming to Houston for ARMA Houston, and seeing you in Nashville for ARMA International and celebrating all of our successes together as a company in your work with DEQ. Thank you for being here and continuing to wear the title of most interesting person at Access Sciences.

Tina:

Thank you guys. It’s been a pleasure to get to chat with you on this and appreciate everything you do. Thank you all so much.